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COMMENTARY · 3rd September 2011
Merv Ritchie
Amazing; simply flipping amazing! In fact it is truly unbelievable, inconceivable! What person, what entity, what in Christ’s name would permit any human or spiritual structure to allow such reprehensible actions to continue and then claim there was no legal binding authority to report them?

But today it happened; the Catholics state that the Irish law demanding they report sexual abuse on children by their clergy to the Irish Government was not legally binding.

This has been going on for generations. Hundreds of years of Catholic clergy sexually assaulting, abusing and scarring little boys and girls. They even used to cut off young boys testicles to keep their voices high calling them 'Castrati'. This stopped less than 100 years ago. Still hundreds, thousands of our fellow humans walk through their doors every Sunday and praise them. Shame!

Here in the Sacred Circle, the Northwest corner of British Columbia, Canada, we find entire families suffering from the abuse of these abhorrent people; the missionaries, Catholic, Protestants and Jesuits. Their teaching was so effective we now find the First Nation survivors of the abuse carrying on the tradition against their own people. It is like a disease, a replicating virus fostered and nurtured by a host body, the Christian Church.

As sexual abuse became a Christian symbol of normalcy everyone began doing it. Husbands, fathers, uncles and sons all participated. It felt good and it was okay, “The Jesus worshipers all did it, it can’t be bad!”

Then it got even worse. The mothers began offering their children up. They did this to maintain their good relationship with God. All daughters, especially the attractive ones were told to go to the Father, the Priest and the Grandfather. If they protested they were punished by their own parents. Such a history is the truth in the Sacred Circle.

All of this began with Jesus. The Christians holler in protest. Yet they continue to honour the Catholic Church and the beginning of Christianity. Jesus, if you understand the origins and believe what was taught, never praised Mary. Jesus never had Saints. If the original writings said anything they stated he claimed he wasn’t God. The original statements were along the lines of ‘Everyone gets to their spiritual God on their own, by themselves, praise no one or no thing.’

The Catholics had a better idea. They determined they could control everyone by subterfuge; there was no point in having a free, independent knowledgeable people. This is also why they didn’t allow everyone to learn how to read and write until the Scotsman (the neighbours to the Irish) instituted public education in the 1700’s. Mother Mary and an untold number of saints; as an individual you are completely usless without a spirit guide.

The Catholics are arguably even worse than the Third Reich and Hitler’s Germany. When the Jews, Gypsy’s and invalids were being burned during the Holocaust most German citizens were completely unaware. They knew Hitler hated Jews and they knew they were being rounded up and shipped off to camps, but they didn’t know, until the Second World War was over, the extent of the atrocities.

The Catholics have known now for dozens of years, decades, how awful their church and their churches leaders are and were, yet they still attend, repeating the time worn phrases back to the buggered Priest,

Priest: In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. (making the sign of the cross)
All: Amen.
Priest: The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
All: And also with you.

Yet today this still continues as if all the Catholics are as brainwashed as Patti Hurst who picked up a gun at the behest of her kidnappers and assisted in robbing a bank.

First nations men and women now begin their gatherings with a prayer to “Our Father, Our Lord” as if they have no concept of how brutalized their entire culture is at the hands of those who introduced this concept of a supreme God.

First Nation’s people knew the real supreme force. It was life itself. When they killed an animal, when they cut down a tree, when they received anything of benefit, they thanked the life force energy that it came from. They did not kill or destroy without a specific need. The stories coming from all the peoples of the sacred circle speak to terrible consequences when one person or a group of people abused any life energy.

The Nass Valley is a terrific example. The Volcanic eruption that destroyed their many villages is attributed to some young Nisga’a boys abusing spawning salmon. The story told is how they slit the backs of the Salmon and stuck burning sticks, like candles, in them and then laughed as they saw them swim. This is the lesson about respect for all life, every life, animate and non animate. The volcanic eruption and lava flow that destroyed their villages was the retribution. Never abuse any life force.

The Catholics, Jesuits, Protestants, Judaic/Talmudian and the Muslim can all learn from the original First nations, those they all wish to destroy.

God (as you wish to want to use this as the word) is life itself. Any abuse of any life force is an act of Evil (as you wish to use this as the word).

Today our world is a cesspool of nuclear waste and destruction. We as a people disregard almost all life force energy. Welcome to the reality we created. The Nisga’a have gotten over the act of their youngsters wrong doing. They are rebuilding their culture and their teachings. The rest of the First Nations Communities continue to try and get in good with the Christians. Praying to some dead guy stuck on a cross, exactly what this dead guy told them not to do.

Who’s stupid now?

Today the Vatican, that vestige of religion that stood by and supported Hitler, the only place that remained un-assaulted as Rome fell, the secret control society, the abusers of all mankind, stood behind the statement, ‘The Irish law [that demanded we report our abusing priests] wasn’t legally binding.’

Well now, is that Gods law or Mans Law? You son of a bitching bastards, when do we get to do to you what the citizens of Germany did to the Berlin Wall, brick by brick?

As you arise on Sunday morning and consider going to that vestige of Christianity, remember the above words. And remember this too. Just like the mothers and fathers handing their children over to the abusers of the past, you will be told to boycott the author of this. And like the beaten child who loves their mother anyways, you will likely do as you are told. If you have any sense, you will stop this now.

You have to hand it to the native elders, those who remember the stories of the past, long before the missionaries came and told them they were doing things the wrong way. All life force is precious, dignity is precious and you only get this attribute (dignity) by respecting everyone and everything in everyway.

Praise be to you and your brethren, all our relations.
Prove it if you can.
Comment by Mr. Peters on 13th September 2011
All you have to do is take the various claims (that I will list below) concerning the similarities of Christ and other ancient gods that Zeitgeist makes, match them up to the text where it is claimed, and provide the specific quote and/or a link to the source.

There is only one reasonable ground rule:
Obviously, you would want to make sure the texts you quote from are valid, in that they are reasonably demonstrable to have been written before the time of Christ, only because the attempt by Zeitgeist is to show that the biblical story was “borrowed” from earlier myths.

The makers of Zeitgeist offer a list of sources for the claims they make, but they fail to list original texts, besides the Bible, in defense of them. Zeitgeist chooses, to quote modern writers, of which the primary one seems to be Gerald Massey and Acharya S.

The following are the claims of Zeitgeist word for word:

HORUS:
Horus was born on December 25th
Born of the virgin
His birth was accompanied by a star in the east
Three kings followed to locate and adorn the new-born savior
At the age of 12, he was a prodigal child teacher
And at the age of 30, he was baptized and thus began his ministry
Horus had 12 disciples
Performed miracles such as healing the sick and walking on water
Horus was known by many gestural names such as The Truth, The Light, God’s Anointed Son, The Good Shepherd, The Lamb of God, After being betrayed by Typhon,
Horus was crucified,
Buried for 3 days and
Thus, resurrected.

ATTIS:
Born of the virgin
On December 25th,
Crucified,
Placed in a tomb
And after 3 days, was resurrected.

KRISHNA:
Born of the virgin
With a star in the east signaling his coming
Performed miracles with his disciples
And upon his death was resurrected.

DIONYSUS
born of a virgin on December 25th
was a traveling teacher
who performed miracles such as turning water into wine
he was referred to as the “King of Kings,” “God’s Only Begotten Son,” “The Alpha and Omega,” and many others
and upon his death, he was resurrected.

MITHRA:
Born of a virgin
On December 25th
He had 12 disciples
And performed miracles
And upon his death was buried for 3 days
And thus resurrected
He was also referred to as “The Truth,” “The Light”
Interestingly, the sacred day of worship of Mithra was Sunday.

Jesus Christ:
Born on December 25th
Three kings followed to locate and adorn the new-born savior

Let me be very clear, I am not looking for what people SAY it says in the ancient literature. There is an abundance of that available. I want to know where these people are getting their information because one can find no historical record of these claims in ancient history.
I wish you were right.
Comment by Mr. Peters on 8th September 2011
Just for the record I did watch the Zeitgeist movie. I wish it was right in that there is no God, and therefore no objective right or wrong. I wish we were nothing more than an accident of mathematical chance. For if it is correct in that there is no God, then all things are permissible. I say that all things are permissible for it is us then who makes the rules, which then means that we can determine what is evil and what is good. I like that. No more having to be nice to people who are stupid, just put a bullet in between their eyes, after all there is no objective evil or good. Those stupid people who block traffic trying to get their Tim Horten's coffee, run them off the road - damn that would be fun.

As I said, I wish it was right.
I do not enjoy this but I know you wait
Comment by Merv on 8th September 2011
I have been involved in the Christmas faith since I was born. After my parents split and my family quit church I went on my own (we were Baptist as I was born). I was a kid. I have read an re-read the bibles, both xmas books. They are all crap in my considered opinion. Great morality wrapped around a huge trick.

Once again, you quote the new to justify the old. Don't quote John to jusify Isaiah. If you want truth go back even further - to the Enuma Elish, it is the first, the Chaldean Genesis.

This is all a dangerous argument and debate. I do not wish to have you change your belief but I must also stand for the truth - and Jesus and the Catholics have nothing to do with truth.

You earlier stated that hell was mentioned in the old testament. You failed to reference a chapter or verse. Might this be because - - there is no such thing?

You are a friend and I do not wish to create disharmony. But I also must stand firm, the Jesus faith is totally misguided.

Watch the Zeitgeist movie link on the front page, all of it, if you can stand to have your beliefs challenged.

Context
Comment by Rick McDaniel on 8th September 2011
I have read those scriptures and in the context of the book from which they come they are not refering to the things that you are implying. The eating the of the flesh and drinking of the blood was a prophesy of a seige that occured where cannibalism was resorted to, it was not a reference to the Messiah.

The carpenter is a demonstration of a false Idol made by the hands of men, but worshipped as a god.

Jesus the Messiah is one third of the trinity that forms the Godhead. He was an aspect of God brought to life here on Earth, but existed from the beginning of time. Read the first 14 verses of John Chapter 1. It lays it out pretty clearly.

There are many web sites and books that take parts of the Bible and misrepresent them. I know I used to follow them.

I actually read the whole Bible and it changed my mind forever.

You may have heard of a guy named Yan Martel. He has written a few good books as well. As research for The Life of Pi he read the Koran, the Buddhist Holy Book (sorry I forget the name of it) and the Holy Bible. When he finished the Bible he was a Christian. He used to be an avowed Athiest, with a degree in Philosophy and used to lecture on the foolishness of religion. He now lectures on the importance of God and Christ. The Bible, read it if you dare!
Quoting from the bible can go both ways.
Comment by Merv Ritchie on 8th September 2011
Using the old testament, which was primarily based on writings discovered on clay tablets buried for over 4000 years and only deciphered this past century, the Enuma Elish also called the Chaldean Genesis.

Here is quotes (and yes I have selected specific paragraphs to make a point);

Isaiah 43: 10 to 13
“You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior. I have revealed and saved and proclaimed I, and not some foreign god among you. You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “that I am God. Yes, and from ancient days I am he. No one can deliver out of my hand.”

Followed shortly after by Isaiah 44: 13, 17 and 18
13 The carpenter measures with a line and makes an outline with a marker; he roughs it out with chisels and marks it with compasses. He shapes it in human form, human form in all its glory, that it may dwell in a shrine.
17 From the rest he makes a god, his idol; he bows down to it and worships. He prays to it and says, “Save me! You are my god!” They know nothing, they understand nothing; their eyes are plastered over so they cannot see, and their minds closed so they cannot understand.


And Now Isaiah 49 from 25 and 26

I will contend with those who contend with you, and your children I will save. I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh; they will be drunk on their own blood, as with wine. Then all mankind will know that I, the LORD, am your Savior

I simply use these references from the Oldest Book to demonstrate how by reading the damn thing it sounds awfully like Isaiah is warning readers about the coming of a carpenter and a church who eats flesh like bread and drinks wine like blood.

But of course those who are brainwashed will argue til they die. Might I recommend you watch this if you are prepared to be open minded?

http://www.watchzeitgeist.com/zeitgeist-the-movie/
last final word
Comment by Steve Smyth on 7th September 2011
Goes to George Carlin

Religions are like elevator shoes, some people need them, some people don't, some people need them for awhile and then dont need them when they grow.
The big problem really occurs when some people try to force other people to wear their shoes....... even if they don't fit

fin
The final word
Comment by Gary in Dease Lake on 6th September 2011
An atheist was seated next to a little girl on an airplane and he turned to her and said, "Do you want to talk? Flights go quicker if you strike up a conversation with your fellow passenger."

The little girl, who had just started to read her book, replied to the total stranger, "What would you want to talk about?"

"Oh, I don't know," said the atheist. "How about why there is no God, or no Heaven or Hell, or no life after death?" as he smiled smugly.

"OK," she said. "Those could be interesting topics but let me ask you a question first. A horse, a cow, and a deer all eat the same stuff - grass. Yet a deer excretes little pellets, while a cow turns out a flat patty, but a horse produces clumps. Why do you suppose that is?"

The atheist, visibly surprised by the little girl's intelligence, thinks about it and says, "Hmmm, I have no idea."

To which the little girl replies, "Do you really feel qualified to discuss why there is no God, or no Heaven or Hell, or no life after death, when you don't know shit?"

And then she went back to reading her book.
Re-form-ations happen
Comment by bill braam on 6th September 2011
The first reformation happened in the 1500's because people like Martin Luther stepped up and brought the chirch to account for things that were going wrong. Mr Luther did not want to destroy the church but strived to bring it back in line with biblical principles. Today, such as then people are striving to make the church as a whole closer to biblical principals. There is more good than wrong going on in the church of today and the wrongs are being brought to the surface by many outstanding persons.
'Power corrupts' is a term that applies to the church as well. Please don't throw out an entity that has many fine people following Christ in many very positive ways in order do roust out the evil persons that have infiltrated it, the evil ones will be removed in due time. Thank you.
Clarification
Comment by Rick McDaniel on 6th September 2011
Just to clarify, that although I disagree with many of the policies and practices of the Catholic Church, I have many friends and family members who attend the church and are truly seeking a relationship with the living God. This I encourage and am glad for.
It is the policies and prctices such as the one's in question here that I disagree with and think bring a bad light to all of Christianity. This is of no good to God or man.
If you are a Catholic and live by the word of God, please don't take offence by my comments.
Hi Dave
Comment by Rick McDaniel on 6th September 2011
Hi Dave, the original 5 books of the Old Testament are the books used by orthodox Jews and the book as a whole is called the Torah. The remainder of the Old Testament is what the Jewish Faith as a whole uses for instruction.
The version you quoted Matthew from is a different version than I used. I think it is either the NIV or the amplified. There are many modern translations now. The King James was translated into English from the original Latin Translation. The Latin translation was done by a council under the Order of Constantine, but they did not write the works. They took months to decide which manuscripts were in fact authentic and written by the apostles. The manuscripts they decided on were in fact written in Greek, the international language of the day so that they would be understood by the most people. Constantine had them translated into Latin, the language of his Empire.
The version I quoted from is the NASB (New American Standard Version) and is translated from the original Greek manuscripts into English. The Greek language has many more words and is not simple to translate. There are over 10 words to describe fear. The one used in the original Greek meant reverent respect, not what we consider fear in today's English.
Hell is mentioned many times in the Old Testament. I have read it quite a bit.
There is a lot of anti Catholic and anti Christian sentiment in the world. I strongly disagree with some of the policies and teachings of the Catholic Church. I was raised in the Catholic Faith, and now attend a simple Bible church after 20 years of believing exactly the things you speak about. I fell away from my faith.
What changed my thoughts were #1 I believe God, and after that I actually read the entire Bible. It took over a year. I started in early 2009.
Actually reading it will teach you that what some people do in the name of God, they are actually doing in the name of greed for money or power. It is a shame, I fully agree. None of what they do or claim is in fact biblical.
There are other institutions that have abusers hidden within their ranks, doctors, lawyers, teachers, realtors, hockey players, musicians, actors, loggers, writers, the list goes on my friend.
When a mechanic is arrested for doing something awful it is not right to say every mechanic is awful.
If that mechanic worked for a company that said, take that guy who did something awful, move him to another location, try to either discredit or pay off the victim, and lets not change our policy, then yes, it is right to call not only that Mechanic, but the company he works for to account.
I understand your anger and disgust at these atrocities. I share them with you.
My appologies
Comment by Dave Thompson on 6th September 2011
I am sure you are a good man and of course I do not think you would harm anyone much less a child. The difficulty you must face is how many of those who profess to be of your faith do, Jesus believers. The root word for Christianity is Christ and that is the root of the Catholics and it is also the root of your faith. It is a dilemma for you I am sure.

There are two Christian Bibles. One is the Old Testament and the other is the New Testament. Usually it is the Old Testament that is referred to as the Holy Bible (it is actually Jewish - pre Jesus). That writing comes from the time of Moses (apparently) and never ever, anywhere does it mention Hell. That was a Catholic construct; introducing fear and evil. I do not wish to get into a theological argument with you or anyone regarding this abridged mass of writing. It is all designed to abuse your independence anyways.

But I will say this. Your quote from Matthew 18 began with;

And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven..."

The key phrase here is “become like children” everything else then has nothing to do with actual children. You read and interpret these writings to fit your preconceived biased and completely brainwashed beliefs.

And no, these ‘new testament’ writings are not from as early as you suggest. Mark, Luke and Matthew were based on writings earlier than John but all are in serious question. Roman emperor Diocetian tried to destroy every writing about Jesus in 303 AD. Later, in 326, Emperor Constantine ordered the same thing, the confiscation and destruction of all these writings. This was after he and his Council in Nicea, 325 AD, voted that Jesus should be considered a God. Then in 331 he commissioned the writing of the new bible, the New Testament. There is no writing, none, that predates this work.

There was nothing Martin or anyone else could do but borrow and make stuff up. Remove parts, add parts, change definitions, it is all the same trickery that has our world in a fine mess.
To Dave Thompson
Comment by Rick McDaniel on 5th September 2011
Hi Dave, I do not support the abuse of children in any form. How you could get that from my response is beyond me.
And point of clarification, the New Testament except for the parts that are in the Catholic Bible were in fact written within 60 years of the death and resurrection of Christ. The Pope did add some books 300 years later but they are not contained in the Holy Bible that most Christian Churches use. They were removed by King James after the the reformation started by a guy named Martin Luther. King James had the bible translated into English with those parts removed so that the Catholic Church could no longer use the inability of the average person to read Latin to control them with an unhealthy fear of God. If you read the Holy Bible in it's entirety you would understand God and the purpose he has for all of us much better even though you may not agree with it. Start with the Gospel according to John, and then read the book of Acts. You will find it quite inspiring. You will also learn that Jesus loved children in an entirely healthy way above all else, as he wishes us to as well, and made that point very clear to his disciples, and also made it clear that anyone who would abuse children is in big trouble.

Mathew 18 verses 1-5
"At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, 3and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. 4“Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5“And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me; 6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."

So you see that Jesus loves little children and commands believers to love and protect them as well.

?
Comment by Mr. Peters on 5th September 2011
Nietzsche you are not, he would have responded to my arguments, you did not. Trying to reason with you is a Sisyphean action. There is no point in attempting to debate a topic with logic when the other wishes to only use emotions and not logic.
You need to do more studying about me, Mr. Peters
Comment by Friedrich Nietzsche on 5th September 2011
My goodness you sure know how to skew a subject. From your first comment to your last it is like you are scrambling to find anything to attack. The Volcanic eruption was obviously an analogy, a story to teach their people with. Alcohol was never a part of the Indians prior to the Aryan invasion, and neither was the disease you mention, the wiping out of food sources (raping and plundering), or the Chiefs taking more than they needed.

I wrote numerous works critiquing Christianity and the organized tribe religions. I may have died a crazy man but you are sounding far more psychotic than I ever did. Please don’t mis-represent me.
Re: Dave Thompson
Comment by Mr. Peters on 5th September 2011
On what do you base your moral indignation regarding these offenses? Friedrich Nietzsche was correct when he said that if there is no God, then all things are permissible. He also said God is dead and it is we who have killed him.

If our morals come from nothing else other then us, then we can change those morals to suit us. There was a time when "boy-love" was normal, girls were married as soon as they hit puberty or sooner. And if you did not like how your baby looked when it was born you placed it outside to be exposed. If you could afford it you could have as many wives as you like. When you came into a village that you conquered you killed all males and older women and took the young girls for you own amusement.

So tell me, what do we base our morals on?
Wow, Christians defend this crap?
Comment by Dave Thompson on 5th September 2011
Using the New Testament to argue on behalf of the Christian/Catholic God is like using Warren Jessop’s writings to argue in favour of Polygamy. The New Testament was written long after they burnt all the writings of Christs time, in 300 AD by a Roman Emperor (Constantine) who wanted to control all the people. The Catholic Church was the sole owners and promoters of this book.

All the Christian churches and their followers are as fooled as the Jews and the Muslims. When you give up your life to someone’s made up trickery and belief structure you give up your dignity and adopt theirs. Now that you resign your independence to some ‘God’ you get to blame your actions on some evil force or other supernatural power.

All worshipers are losers in the grand scheme of things. Supporting any form of Christianity is supporting child abuse. The Pope is the head of the Christian Church, like it or not, just like Hitler was the head of the Germans. And another funny thing, the current Pope was also part of Hitler’s army.

All Christians are guilty by association. This is a simple fact, I know you don’t like it but that is your problem to deal with, yours alone, not some Minister or Priest. Morality and a good conscience has nothing to do with a belief in a supreme being.
Voice Of Reason
Comment by Adam Brown on 5th September 2011
Loved your thoughts and comment Mr. McDaniel. Great to hear the voice of reason. I don't know if a guy who can have a crazy rant like that can actually listen to reason but hey you gave it a shot, eh!
Just to get biblical on you all :)
Comment by Rick McDaniel on 4th September 2011
I think that any rational person would feel that such abuse cannot be tolerated and should not be. Especially in a setting such as a church, but please do not lump all Christians in with the Vatican on this account. And also most Catholics I am sure consider this behavior and historical abuse of the innocent as abhorrent.
The fact that the Vatican has a history of hiding the abuse by priests sadly shows that the Catholic Church has become an organization that is more concerned about it's earthly values than the biblical truths it is supposed to be teaching us. As with most things we run into in everyday life there is a biblical solution to this issue for them, that does not support the position of the original article I read in the Globe and Mail http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/europe/vatican-rejects-unfounded-irish-accusation-of-sex-abuse-cover-up/article2153015/. In that article it says that they must give the priest an opportunity to be "converted to save their souls first" but in the bible, in Paul's first letter to the Church at Corinth chapter five reads:
"1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife. 2 [a]You have become [b]arrogant and [c]have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst."
In this letter Paul, who wrote a large part of the new testament clearly indicates that if someone is practicing immorality they should be removed from the Church Body. It also states that any other view is arrogant indicating that men are trying to know more than God. He then clearly states that this is so that he can be delivered to satan (separated from God), so that he can THEN become saved. :
"3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and [d]I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord [e]Jesus."

Further he goes on to make it clear that it does not mean that the Church (every Christian) should not go out into the world to sinners in order to save them, for that is clearly what Christ did and commands every Christian to do, read verses 9-11:

"9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. 11 But [f]actually, I wrote to you not to associate [g]with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one."

Do not allow someone who is exhibiting this behavior to be a part of the Church. They are to be separated from the Church, as they are already separated from God, by their sin!
Now comes the good news part of the Gospel. Fast forward to the second letter to the Corinthians. Paul is writing to them again and intending to visit. He has heard that after the Brother was removed the Brother was grieved and was brought to repentance.Second Corinthians Chapter 2 verse 5 to 11:

Forgiveness for the Offender
"5 If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you to some extent—not to put it too severely. 6 The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient. 7 Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8 I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him. 9 Another reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. 10 Anyone you forgive, I also forgive. And what I have forgiven—if there was anything to forgive—I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, 11 in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes. "

The church is urged to now forgive the Brother, who has repented, in order to save his soul.

This is the biblical instruction to the Church, by Paul, written within 30 years of the Death of Christ, written by a man who originally persecuted Christians, then was visited by Jesus, and went on to be one of the most important founders of the Christian Church. He himself was separated from God (blinded for three days by Jesus), forgiven by him after repenting, filled with the holy spirit,(born again), and went on to die a martyr by beheading. Not a likely course of action for somebody who was a privileged and respected member of Jewish society, (a Pharisee) unless something very real happened that caused him to give up his life of relative ease and security, to be imprisoned, stoned, shipwrecked, starved, persecuted and beheaded!
Organized religion or belief system.
Comment by Helmut Giesbrecht on 4th September 2011
These are not the same and most people would agree that organized religions which ask you to turn off your brain at the door are a problem. I find more people less inclined to do that and then searching for something more meaningful. There are authors worth reading like Robin Myers and Tom Harpur.
Maggie - a follow up - link is there.
Comment by Merv Ritchie on 4th September 2011
Yes Maggie that highlighted sentence is a link. Click on the sentence. it will take you to a more indepth article with even another link. And as for the Totems, they were not a spiritual item, they were markers. Mortuary poles, territorial poles and history pole of achievements. They were not meant to be spiritual. Too many attribute Christian constructs to everything they see.

Teaching Native history and dance doesn't specifically mean anything spiritual unless you feel singing Oh Canada and waving a maple leaf flag is also spirtual, if so then okay, you're right.
hhhhold on there....
Comment by MaggieJo on 4th September 2011
Perhaps, rather than highlighting a particular sentence so readers would (as we tend to do), FREAK OUT in disgust by passing judgement from reading one single sentence without delving further in "investigation style" past one single highlighted note...it may be more prudent for readers to get the whole story, before we rant along.

Is there a link readers can access to the highlighted sentence in this article so we can
read further to understand the reasoning of this finding before going off on emotional
ranting sessions? Nope. No link. We readers have to "trust" the bearer of this article is
objectively based. OR we readers can do our own research (as it is highly lacking
in this article) to rule our own judgements.

IE; Often what has been deemed in a Court of Law that we initially find outrageously offensive can be the result of many things: IE; the language in which a complaint/pontential order has been submitted to the Courts fails as it was not presented accordingly to the expectation of the Courts. OR this one highlighted sentence published in this article may have had footnotes explaining this one particular sentence and the reasonings behind it, and whether or not the Courts are awaiting a new presentation to be submitted the proper way.

See? We don't know. All we readers see here is a highlighted sentence followed by an
excessively emotional rant.

So, before we decide to "Tear down all religious structures" as noted in the title of this
article...perhaps we can be more informed first.

PS - RE: The subject line in this article: "When is it time to tear down all religious structures?"

Would this include the tearing down of all the spritually-based Totem Poles too? As well
as the First Nations spirituality teachings in the schools when every single other religion
isn't allowed to even pose a HINT of their own spirituality convictions in the interim? So...rules/alowances for a select few and not the other? Is this what this is all about? Hmmmm... Interesting.
A lesson in Logic
Comment by Mr. Peters on 4th September 2011
To say that all natives are drunks, all Europeans are good, and all residential schools were evil is as logically sound as your conclusion that because of the evil of some individuals that the whole religious institution of the church is evil.

Now while I think that evil has been done and at times continues to be done in the name of God that does not negate the validity of God. Here are four of the simplest logical argument for the existence of God.

Cosmological argument:
1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
2. The universe began to exist.
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Moral argument:
1. If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist.
2. Objective moral values and duties do exist.
3. Therefore, God exist.

Teleological argument:
1. The fine-tuning of the universe is due to either physical necessity, chance, or design.
2. It is not due to physical necessity or chance.
3. Therefore, it is due to design.

Ontological argument:
1. It is possible that a maximally great being exists.
2. If it is possible that a maximally great being exists, then a maximally great being exists in some possible world.
3. If a maximally great beings exists is some possible world, then it exists in every possible world.
4. If a maximally great being exists in every possible world, then it exists in the actual world.
5. If a maximally great being exists in the actual world, then a maximally great being exists.
6. Therefore, a maximally great being exists.

In addition to this is the argument for the veracity and validity of Jesus as the Son-of-God, and yes He did make that claim. The best argument for Jesus is the disciples of Jesus. From historical records and church tradition we know that all of the disciples, with the exception of John, died a martyr’s death. They all died hold to and proclaiming that Jesus who had been crucified was in fact raised. Now finding people throughout history willing to die for something is not that difficult. But, here is the rub; they all thought that what they were dying for was the truth. Now if Jesus did not rise from the tomb, as the disciples proclaim, then they knew it. So here we then have a group of men who are all willing to die for a lie knowing that it was a lie, not possible.

Your very act of outrage against these acts of evil is an argument for the very God that you are railing against. Logic, you have got to love it.
I know an ex nun
Comment by blocky bear on 4th September 2011
she left the order after twelve years. She stopped attending church saying while there where some good people in the religious order it was basically corrupt run by a lot of terrible old men in the Vatican. Swear to GoD! d.b.
Just wow.
Comment by Stacey Tyers on 4th September 2011
I am non-aboriginal, I have never been sexually abused by a member of the cloth. This does not ease my anger and bitterness of the victims of these CRIMES.

People quick to disrespect this article because of the writers views are disrespecting victims. Until you sit down with a man or woman who did suffer in residential schools and grade point the crimes against them for restitution payments, until you sit down and hear someone's story, until you have actually been a victim of one of these crimes, please do not speak to the subject.

Disregarding the sex crimes and abuse which have been long documented and proven, is akin to disregarding slavery or the holocaust.

The hgh drug and alcohol use on reserves is shown to fall back to the cycle of abuse. I myself, am often most amazed when sitting down with a residential school survivor that they in fact have the will to live, let alone, often still believe in god.

But many do, I have anger on their behalf that it is dismissed. I have heard some experiences, it breaks my heart. We must remember though adults now, when these crimes happened they were children. With no choice, no say and no hope.

We must not disregard or disrespect these crimes, regardless of the opinion of the writer.

You must reach inside your heart, regardless of your personal opinions, beliefs etc... and realize children were hurt, opressed and abused and the results of that abuse are still all around us. See past your prejudices, and ask yourself what if it was my child? How would I want others to react.

I however, am still hurt and angry on behalf of those children, ALL those children aboriginal and non-aboriginal who have been abused by someone they trust, someone in authority, within or outside of the church. The article however looks at the fact that the catholic church has determined it is above the law, outside of the law or requires no apology for protecting men who would hurt children.
lets get rid of the schools too?
Comment by bill braam on 3rd September 2011
Well no. Just like churches, schools are also the perfect place for predators to do their evil. Jesus, who is beleived to be the head of the church certainly did condone such sickness. You may eradicate every church and religious symbol and you will still have the evil that has infiltrated it. It is good that we are collectively putting a stop to the predators of the world one by one but it would be a disservice to get rid of religion. There is much more good than bad that resides in religious circles. and then there is the internet which is a perfect place for evil predators to ply their trade. Thank you
Flora Jerome, will you help?
Comment by Janice P. Robinson on 3rd September 2011
Do you know Mr. Ritchie?
Do you understand the anger he expresses?

You write like you understand what is going on around here.
You write like you know Mr. Ritchie well enough to disrespect him by insinuating a character defect. I have never met him, and respectfully hesitate to take his inventory.

It is ironic that the bitterness felt by a newspaper editor.......and the tears he may cry, as he does his job......brings me more hope, and a smile to my face.

Thank you for your interest, Flora Jerome.
You might not agree, but you gave the article respect. That helped.
For the Record.
Comment by Mr. Peters on 3rd September 2011
Volcanoes are the result of magma build up under the crust and when that pressure gets to be greater than what the crust can contain it irrupts releasing the magma in the form of lava. It does not matter how many salmon these boys tormented, it would not have had any bearing on whether or not the volcano would have erupted or not. I honestly though you were above fairy tails.

If the first nations communities have such a high regard for all life forces why were the moose in the Nass valley just about eradicated? Why do they have one of the highest if not the highest rates of drug and alcohol abuse? If they have such a high respect for everyone why then is there such great disparity with in their own society on the reserves? The chiefs have nice big homes and those at the bottom have shacks.

By all means let us live like the first nations before we Europeans came. No agriculture, no writing, no science, no medicine allowing a simple infection to kill you, raping and plundering off the land as we would not have the means to improve our environment. Sounds like paradise to me, NOT.
Question
Comment by Flora Jerome on 3rd September 2011
You sound so bitter, Did this all happen to you? I believe someone can help you.