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NEWS RELEASE · 29th January 2012
Merv Ritchie on Facebook
PART THREE OF THREE PARTS

A new conversation started by Chuck Rockwell

Chuck Rockwell
Canada Oil vs foreign Oil? Which one is your choice? Support Canada's Oil future

Merv Ritchie
Canada Oil good. Shipping it raw and unprocessed to a Communist Country that jails or kills anyone who speaks about democracy, BAD!

Chuck Rockwell
I'm glad you agree Canadian Oil is Good. That's what this site is.

Rick Lavallee
Merv would you even have been intrested in this subject if the raw bitumen destined for China was not to go through your Community?

Merv Ritchie
Chuck, that is not what this site is. It is a promotion of a distorted truth. If we were being Ethical we wouldn't give away our prime resources to arguably the most unethical country on the globe.

Merv Ritchie
Yes, and I was interested and engaged when BHP Billiton wanted to buy the Sask Potash Mines, and I was engaged when Danny Williams stopped AbitibiBowater from stealing their resources. I wish we could have stopped Gordon Campbell from selling off (giving away) most of BC's assets. Shipping it raw is not only unethical it is morally repulsive. As a human citizen living in Canada it is a duty to be engaged and expose this tragedy.

Chuck Rockwell
Read the info page of this site, you are distorting what this site is about. It's trade and I'm sure you are smart enough to know this. Canadian Economy. Im not here to fight with you. I stated my Opinion that I'm for Canadian Oil, plain and simple.

Merv Ritchie
Yes and I too am for Canadian "Oil" so lets make Canadian "Oil". Currently the product is so raw it cannot even be called "Bunker fuel" it is too thick with impurities now one would want to run it in their tankers. You can not call the raw bitumen from Northern Alberta, OIl (notice I didn't use tarsands or oilsands). It needs extensive refining before you can rightfully call it oil.

Chuck Rockwell
Canadian Economy, BC alone can get up to 28 billion for the next 25 years from Alberta Oil Sands and you know this. Majority is a win for the Economy. I have a good friend with your statues in BC and he says the Majority are in Favor of Alberta Bitumen going out. It's who says this and who says that. My opinion stated above is Canada First and that is what this site is about.

Merv Ritchie
Your original question was ... Canada Oil vs foreign Oil? Which one is your choice? Support Canada's Oil future
I support Canadas future and Canadian Oil. I do not care if it was 28 Trillion in 10 years. Canada's future depends on us securing our own energy future. Money is also not worth the destruction of the BC Coast, or any land for that matter. This is ethics and morality. Not selling your childrens future (the future of humanity) for any amount of money.

Chuck Rockwell
You like to twist things, I'm not selling my Children's future. I'm not telling them horrible things that they will die. I'm not telling them the Sky Is Falling. You have no idea what the future holds. I have lived through all kinds of the Earth is Doomed scenarios. You are the ones who have small children so scared to grow up telling them of the apocalypse to come. I have Grandchildren and have lived in Fort McMurray for 34 years now. Ill soon retire and my Opinion still stands. I see the lies the EcoNuts tell. I'm just a little human being on this Big ole planet in a solar system so vast.

Merv Ritchie
Wow Chuck, "You Guy's"? Just who are you lumping me together with? I am not twisting a single issue, I am stating basic facts. I am also not telling the types of stories you relate. What I am saying is it is completely unethical to continue with the current Enbridge Northern Gateway plan. Morally repugnent. I do not say an apocalypse is coming. Please do not put words in my mouth. I address issues not emotional adjectives designed to incite hatred or terror.

Doug Ramsay
at the end of the day merv what would make you happy? whats your perfect world?

Doug Ramsay
sounds like you would shut us down i given the chance

Doug Ramsay
if we shut it all down would that make you happy?

Merv Ritchie
Doug, you haven't been reading the previous posts eh? At the end of the day, is too much to share, but as for this topic, I would be happy with a full refinery in Northern Alberta at the source of the bitumen. I have stated this repeatedly. And the shipping of the product in sealed containers just like every other container vessel, Cosco for example. Such a fantastic reduction in the potential for a spill the world might begin to admire Canada again.

Merv Ritchie
Now, my perfect world? wow, let me go on and on - or maybe check out our website! Lots of tin foil hat stuff there!




Doug Ramsay
your dead set against all pipelines? just wondering

Merv Ritchie
Nope. This one though, it would be my human duty to die fighting to stop. Does that make me one of the extremists?

Doug Ramsay
in my eyes yes it does. so we should truck the oil all the way to the west coast or train?

Merv Ritchie
Nope. Trucks are way worse. The rail opens up the product to an unlimited market and the infrastructure is already in place. CN has the capacity today to move 10 times the quanitity the Enbridge Proposal with their 36 inch pipe can move to their very exclusive limited market. The whole concept is wrong.

Merv Ritchie
In my view, those who promote this widely crazy Enbridge concept are the extremists. They even use language to excite extreme reactions. Joe Oliver could rightly be called a terrorist. He has today suggested if Canadians do not accept this then heath care and OAP is at risk. That is threatening behavior, he is terrorizing our elderly. That is extremist behaviour.

Doug Ramsay
so if i am reading you right. in your eyes if we put the product on the train you would be happy and stop complaining?

Merv Ritchie
Not quite that simple Doug, but we're getting there. The rail cars need to be double skinned and fabricated to be removable from the rail just like present day containers. The product must remain contained and shipped like all other containers. If the product was refined, this method of transport would be much more cost effective to the end user. Oh, and I'm not complaining. I am making an arguement against the Enbridge Northern Gateway Proposal. I will be happy when all tanker traffic, every one, has their fuel holds (bunkers) refabricated to accomodate the same style of double skinned rail car. These should be equipped with solenoids that immediately seal the valving in the event of a mishap. This way disasters like the Rena on the reef in New Zealand will be greatly minimized.

Doug Ramsay
my problem with this is that if this was done i dont believe you would be happy. you would want more regulations. and when it comes right down to it you would really just want us to shut down. you will price us right out of the market because the cost to produce a bbl of oil would be double that of the middle east, where i dont see your peole doing anything to clean them up. then again we are the easy target for you. they would not give you the time of day.

Merv Ritchie
This is an "Us against Them" arguement, as if you are on one side and I am on some other side. This is not the case. You and I are on the same side. We are Canadians wanting a better economic future. I am not part of "Any People" as to your reference - where i dont see your peole doing anything to clean them up - I am an independent person allied and working for no one but myself and my beautiful family. This is likely why you do not hear my thoughts parroted anywhere else, I have my own brain.

Merv Ritchie
Just for your reference, my favorite term for the enviro's who just want to follow something, like the ethical oilers who just want to be a redneck and follow Ezra and Paul Stanway, is the "Ganga smokin' multi coloured wool knit hat crowd". Lots of their thoughts are very misguided as well, like protesting the installation of high head, run of river hydro electric plants. Protesting against them being privately owned is one thing, but these hydro plants are the most enviromentally sustainable production of electricity, save none. Protesting the installation is just uninformed. So I save the same vitrol for the Ethical Oil crowd, uninformed ten gallon Stetson wanna bees. Protest something worth your time and effort. March in front of Alisons office and demand a refinery for long term sustainable jobs and National Unity.

Doug Ramsay
doesnt sound much like "national unity" with cracks like rednecks and ten gallon Stetson wanna bees.

Merv Ritchie
Although I wish I could be the leader of the whole damn thing and bring not just national unity, but world unity, I am not that person. But Our leaders, such as Harper, Alison and Christy Clark here in BC, have that role and we could all help them see the light. my "crack" about ten gallon stetsons is just to show I am an equal opportunist. I made a reference to multi coloured wool knit hats too! Laughing about our silly behaviours is good for the spirit, not that I want to enter a theological discussion again.

Doug Ramsay
so what category do you fall into my friend?

Merv Ritchie
Un-categorical


Merv Ritchie
Unless you can find a category that fits a union activist, a businessman, an environmentalist, an industrialist, a theologian, a labourer, an academic, a woodsman, a city dweller, a writer, a musician, a mechanic a philosopher, a technician, a politician, a hippie, a cowboy, a biker, a dad, stepdad, widower, a doctor, an electrician, a driver, a bum and a millionaire. Let me know okay? I am the type of guy that’ll say, “Nuke the unborn, gay, baby whales, for Jesus! Just to see what discussion we can get going. Don’t let the Karma run over the Dogma! All in all - - - I love people - - - All life! I find being alive on this beautiful planet a remarkable thing to experience.

Merv Ritchie
And the last thing I want to see is the world largest last temperate Rainforest destroyed by raw crude bitumen.

Merv Ritchie
And yes, I have been and am all those things, including a step grandaddy. As for millionaire . . . that is only because of my family around me. I am wealthy beyond compare.

Chuck Rockwell
Merv likes people and is long winded.

Chuck Rockwell
Babies Cry, Men Work.

Chuck Rockwell Support Canada

Merv Ritchie
Love! And yes, long winded. I write on average a thousand articles a year. Men and women both work and children only cry when neglected. Support the planet. We all share the same air and water. Right on Chuck! I'm glad the name calling stopped.

Doug Ramsay
merv a pipeline will never distroy a forest. just more left bull shit

Dick Harper
olive oil

Merv Ritchie
Hello Doug, please tell me who said a pipeline would kill a forest? A what is a left Bull? Are you attempting to initiate a conflict, as in conflict oil?

Doug Ramsay
well merv it was you "And the last thing I want to see is the world largest last temperate Rainforest destroyed by raw crude bitumen"

Doug Ramsay
your exact words merv

Merv Ritchie
Hi again Doug, Now I am going to say this with the utmost of respect. please do not be offended. I respect you for having your point of view, however misguided I might think it is.

Merv Ritchie
I said destroyed by raw crude bitumen, not pipeline

Merv Ritchie
It is like the discussion I had with GregSr. before he started the new thread and calmed down, it is about comprehension.

Merv Ritchie
So this is the crux, you know all those comments deleted, the new threads that challenged this site? Well one had a link to Conservative thinking, racism and intelligence, no one is calling anyone stupid but maybe simple unable to comprehend the entire subject. this is the link that was deleted. http://www.livescience.com/18132-intelligence-social-conservatism-racism.html - - - some could learn a bit by reading this research.

Merv Ritchie
Salmon spawn every four years. It is a life cycle. Every year they return but it is a different run on a four year cycle. The bears, Kermodei, browns and Grizzly, grab and eat the moist oily part, the belly and eggs. they leave the reat behind. The wolves come out and drag the carcasses up into the woods, the rotting carcasses feed the forests. It is proven scientific research how the DNA, isotopes appear in the trees in the rain forest. The pollution from a single spilled fully loaded ULCC tanker will spoil many salmon runs for decades. a few spills will kill them all. Then the bears and wolves will leave, no food, then the trees will die. It is a logical progression of events.

Merv Ritchie
A pipeline will not kill a forest. Spilled Raw Bitumen will kill an entire eco system including the forest. Must I provide you links to the research?

Doug Ramsay
marv, with the up most respect tell me how this raw crude bitumen will kill the forest if its in the pipeline? and please dont be offended but i dont think you have any idea how a pipeline works.

Merv Ritchie
I do not a lot about pipelines actually, having designed and installed 2 kilometers of 14 inch diameter Polyethelene and sched 40 steel to develop 500 feet of head pressure for a small hydro electric project, but this is about raw bitumen, not a simple pipeline. Any leak, under the pressure this must be pumped, (this will be a sched 80 due to the high pressure) will pollute huge tracks of salmon bearing creeks and tributeries. The pipeline doesn't just terminate at Kitimat and that's the end of it. It gets pumped into huge bathtub style tankers which have to navigate the most treacherous waters on the planet making thre 90 degree turns just to get out of Douglas channel sailing right past Gill Island where a BC Ferry sank after hitting it (leaving two people at the bottom). The oil does not stay in the pipeline, leak or not, it gets transported in tankers too. And the newest tankers in the world are built with thinner steel, shorter welds and are determined "Professionally" to be far worse than tankers built in the 1970's.

Merv Ritchie
I am sorry if this is too difficult to follow. I will take all the time you need to help everyone understand the complexities. It is really quite simple, just a logical progression. Spilled Bitumen, dead salmon. Dead salmon, dead forest. Dead forest, no oxygen. No oxygen . . .well you get the picture. Remember, this west Coast rain forest is the largest left on the planet. Grade five science explains how it is this forest that produces oxygen.

Merv Ritchie
This just in from a Terrace Economic Development Professional.

http://www.terracedaily.ca/show9295a27s0x300y1z/ANOTHER_LOOK_AT_THE_ENBRIDGE_PROPOSAL_AND_OUR_FUTURE


Doug Ramsay
merv your smug prick. like shit you designed and installed 2 km of line. my point is the raw bitumen is in the pipeline. there are millions of miles of pipeline in this country. with block valves and esd valves the danger to the forest would be at a minimum. sure there is always a chance but your idea of shipping the oil by train with your special tanks would drive the cost of producing the oil sands out of business. but thats what you want in the end anyways. ohhhhhh if you ever talked to like that to anyone in person not just here on facebook you would be wearing your ass as a hat.

Merv Ritchie
And others want to give me one made of tinfoil. In China the Government gets away with doing exactly what you say. Yeah, I designed and installed a 160 kilowatt Hydroelectric Plant near Harrison Lake in BC in 1989. It still operates today. I also designed and installed numerous Wind and solar systems (photovoltaic), importing and exporting. I put in another twin turbine plant on Vancouver Island. My company won the Chairmans best display award at the 1988 Aquaculture International Exposition at the Vancouver Trade and Convention Center. I designed a much bigger hydroelectric plant for Kyuquot on the west coast of Vancouver Island for the Feds Department of Indian Affairs. (they didn't go ahead with that project). Pipelines and hydraulic pressure is my favorite topic, by the way. And of those pipelines you share your knowledge about, thousands have leaked and/or are leaking now. Oil went from $40 to $100 in less than a decade and the economy nor the Athabasca enterprise came to a stand still. I believe with political will it could happen and then you would have stopped a significant part of the protests against the production and shipping. I am just offering suggestions and solutions to the concerns. Not attempting to engage in some fight. Fighting is the last thing the world needs. Sorry about the way I talk/write. My beautiful woman tells me the same thing, I guess it comes from my German blood line, arrogance is what is perceived when all I want to do is share good information.

Barbara S. Van Dyck
Thank you Merv for your patient explanation but I fear you're talking to the wall. Some people will never see the light. Interesting though how many thousands of people a year travel from ugliness of the Fort McMurray area to the beautiful coast of BC to enjoy fishing, sailing and the like. Listen up red neck oil guys. There will never be a pipeline or tanker traffic in the Douglas channel, because it really is true. Over 80% of BC will fight you every step of the way.

Merv Ritchie
Barbara, these are not red neck guys and we are not going to fight Canadians. We are all on the same team. We are just having a bit of difficulty moving beyond our misguided preconceptions of each other. We all want a better life for us, our families and our futures. We are all wanting to go the same direction. It is others who want to benefit from getting us to fight we need to focus on. I consider China near the top of this list. My own BC Gov't threatened me when I attempoted to bring some light and clarity to CSIS Director Richard Faddens claims of Chiniese infiltration of our BC and Alberta Ministers Offices. They know how to play us against each other well. This is why I struggle not to react to the name calling and outbursts. I understand where it is coming from. Read the threats from the BC Gov't Communications Manager at this article. http://www.terracedaily.ca/cgi-bin/show_articles.cgi?ID=7115&TOPIC=0 We are all in this together. Don't let them break up Canada into factions like Yugoslavia or the USSR. We must stand united together.

Chuck Rockwell
It's not Ugly in my city of Fort McMurray, Smug BCer

Chuck Rockwell
Barbie, I have been in Every State and and in 10 Provinces. I have seen things and where I live is Beautiful. I lived in Smog city Los Angeles and I know what clean air is. Smug BCer hates Alberta. It's when I visit there in BC I always get Smug BCer telling me how perfect BC is. We all have beauty in all Provinces. Merv made a remark about Mississippi. Which Is Rude. So now I get Smug BCer telling me my city is Ugly. You have no idea what we represent in Fort McMurray.

Chuck Rockwell
Back to your Caves and stay on Topic. Canada Oil vs Foreign Oil

Merv Ritchie
For ten years I lived on the north lakeshore of the Shuswap Lake. Stunning beauty and a recreational paradise tens of thousands of Albertans came to enjoy for their holidays. Many who lived there went to Alberta and Saskatchewan on their holidays. A great friend of mine has moved to Southern Sask from Sidney, Vancouver Island and thinks his new home is more stunning than his island home was. Now my home is Terrace and I think it is the best. What a crazy bunch of people we are eh? It is something to chuckle over, not fight. I have been sitting here reminiscing over all the places I have lived in the three western Provinces imagining if I could call any of them "Ugly". Nope, not even Yellowknife. Now some of the actual resource extraction locations weren't pretty, but where I have actually lived, most were amazing, same goes for the people, everywhere across Canada, good people. Come to think of it, the area just south of the NWT border, I got out of my car to relieve myself and I found one really ugly thing, the size of the mosquitoes. Trying to hit them while I was doing my thing was an unforgettable experience. Uuggly!

Chuck Rockwell
Merv, Now that's a good article to write.

Merv Ritchie
Yeah Chuck, I apologized about that Mississippi comment, wasn't right or fair. Like I said, I struggle not to react.

Merv Ritchie
I say Canada Oil, refined in Canada, sold in Canada, to Canadians first. Only then shall we ship it as a finished product. Yay Canadian Oil! Boo to selling it raw to China!

Merv Ritchie
It was 12 and a half years ago and I remember it like yesterday. No way I could finish. My thing kept trying to retreat behind my zipper while I was beating my face and head trying to keep my eye lids open. I had encountered bad mosquitos before, like in Malakwa (town named after an indian word that means mosquito) just west of Sicamous. But this was unflippin believable. The moment I opened the door I was assaulted and when I quickly gave up and returned they had filled the car. I opened all the windows and tromped it up to try and suck them out. I am never going back!

oil
Comment by les watmough on 8th February 2012
Read all of the above and there are too many lies to count. Harper brought 2 Pandas back from China in exchange for 200 Canadian jobs. Create Jobs in Canada, refine our oil, saw our logs, process our fish, mill our wheat. It's That simple, we need Peckford as leader or Dave Barrett. Some Canadian with BALLS and GUTS Les Watmough.
Eleven question for ethical oilers.
Comment by Helmut Giesbrecht on 1st February 2012
Merv,
Your Alberta "Ethical oil" friend may want to answer the eleven questions asked by Andrew Nikiforuk on the Tyee at http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2012/02/01/Eleven-Oily-Questions/ . It would really focus the debate. All eleven need answers.
thin edge of the wedge
Comment by anon on 1st February 2012
The plan I'm betting is that once (in their dreams) they were to get their pipe line . How easy it would be for the petroservitives in ottawa to shove offshore oil drilling down our throats. neocons and commies in bed together . Kind of makes me want to puke . How many of our men and women lost their lives at the hand of Chinese soldiers in korea ? Just think how proud the albertians will feel when their oil fuels north korea . North Korea is a prison camp . on the other hand the petroservitives are big on prisons .
Who are the real ECO-NUTS???
Comment by Gerry Hummel on 1st February 2012
Who are the real Radical Eco-Nuts? The people who want to protect our environment?

Or those who would rip a trough through 1200 kilometers of pristine mountainous landscape, over and under 700 salmon and fish bearing rivers and streams, through two mountains, through isolated weather ravaged valleys to plant two three foot wide pipelines filled with deadly heavy
Tar-Sands bitumen and toxic corrosive condensate? Then load and unload the crap in flimsy dubiously registered and insured SUPER tankers and send them through a thin channel with multiple turns out to the storm ravaged Pacific Ocean? Just to create jobs in a Communist controlled country with a dismal human rights record to make more massive profits for the BIG OIL corps?

Process the oil where it comes out of the ground they’ve already destroyed that part of the environment now these idiots just want to spread their destruction further to the west to our beautiful province! Sorry for a few permanent jobs, just not worth it! So take a hike you Radical Eco-Nuts keep that crap in Alberta and fix your mess you created there! Next thing you know they will be after our water because they’ve poisoned most of theirs!
With not a single reservation!
Comment by Merv Ritchie on 1st February 2012
Absolutely, completely, and over my dead body! How 'bout that! Not in regards to "Only" with the USA, but in the name of all the dead Canadian Men and Women, who so valiantly gave their lives to fight for freedom and democracy, the right of a free man to speak his mind, I am completely offended at our National desire to prop up a Communistic Government (not the people) that has not a single smidgeon of respect for human rights.

I have taken this issue on repeatedly and my stance has not changed. Our Premier, Christy Clark, your Premier and our Prime Minister might as well be wearing red army uniforms. They are traitors to all democratic principles; spending our tax dollars, taking them out of education, health care and infrastructure, to build a transport system for resources raw to China?

Un Flipping believable that the common man and woman cannot see this!

I am sick inside having to struggle to explain this idiocy.
Trade With China
Comment by Greg CRAIG SR on 1st February 2012
So Merv, since you are so dead set against Alberta selling oil to China, how do you feel about them as BC's second largest trading partner, after only the USA?
Do you advocate cutting all BC trade to China too?
Or only Alberta oil?
Focus On The Issue
Comment by Greg CRAIG SR on 1st February 2012
Obviously the issues at hand are what our site "Ethical Oil" is about.
In a nutshell, Canada Good, Iran bad.
Canada Ethical country, Iran not.
If you cannot agree with these statements, then you have never been to these other places.
And our other issues should have remained Facebook conversations, but since you chose to publish them, you should have had some expectation of a public rebuttal.
Thanks for your apology/clarification.

I do have a better understanding of your not wanting the pipeline in Kitimat now. I am still a proponent of the pipeline, otherwise we are tied to just one major customer, the USA therefore I believe that we must send our oil to the BC coast for export. So whether that's in Kitimat, Vancouver or somewhere in between does not matter to me, let the process determine that. Hopefully the safest most viable route would be the one used.
Not slander even in the slightest
Comment by Merv Ritchie on 1st February 2012
Greg, a back and forth should remain confined to the Ethical Oil Facebook page. And as you stated you do not want to continue I will also make this my last on this site.

Sheila stated that Canadians were never pacifists. We got onto this thread when I replied stating they weren't pacifists but were known as peacekeepers. There is a significant difference between those terms. And then you said they were not peacekeepers. Thats is when I listed the dozens of peacekeeping missions Canadians were engaged in.

As for Germany, yes I did suggest you were being over dramatic. I am sorry, I did not wish to insult you or hurt your feelings. I simply found the perspective presented a bit over the top. I may have been less than compassionate.

As anyone who knows me, my feelings do not get hurt. Why I was so adament in expressing my concerns for your attitude was you were defending selling our Albertan/Canadian raw unprocessed bitumen to China under the term Ethical Oil. China, in my opinion, is the most unethical country on the globe. A serviceman arguing in support of a country worse than all the countries we have ever fought against is what I considered an insult to all our fallen men and women.

I still find it deplorable our Prime Minister has turned our forces into aggressive war mongers rather than the diplomatic peace keepers they were known for previously.

I would never denegrate our forces but I will expose a wrong.
Military Slander
Comment by Greg CRAIG SR on 1st February 2012
Merv I gave you your verbatime quote that I found to be most offensive.
This conversation began when Sheila asserted that our primary role in the military was not as Peacekeepers but as soldiers. You disagreed and listed the many UN functions that we had participated in. I merely corrected by stating that Peacekeeping had not been our Raison D'Etre. Indeed we actually trained for war. I informed you how I had trained in Germany, and our military's training was to prepare for the inevitable Soviet Invasion. Remember how hilarious you thought that statement was?
That is when you antagonistically proceeded to deride me and the many freinds that I lost over there in "training accidents". You asserted that your freind Norm said it was all one big party and therefore I was being overly dramatic.
What was our purpose of serving in Germany then Merv? We weren't there as Peacekeepers, I can assure you that.
And as for somehow trying to demean me by twisting words where I acknowledged being an internet troll on one site, into the military conversation, and using them completely out of context. I'm not sure how those two completely different topics intertwine? Ya got me on that one.
I don't know if you are trying to imply that being an internet troll is supposed to be offensive, strangely ironic as that is exactly what you are doing.
And as I said before, and you quoted back to me, I served so that you have the freedom to say whatever the hell you want to say.
If you felt that I had somehow attacked you, well I'm sorry, but it certainly did not start out that way. Your hurt feelings seemed to stem from being corrected, leading you down a dark path of slander.
Your assertion that "many" troops were high on opium as you read that in a newspaper; well that was a blatant swipe at me and my comrades, as if by implication that "most" must have been high.
Anyway, I am done with this thread. You can publish it or not. You can atack me again if you wish, I will not respond. But I am sure that your readers might be amused to see a meaner side of you. Or perhaps it's all right with them if you demonize the military and veterans. In which case I'm sad for you all.
Perhaps we could have been freinds under different circumstances, but I see that your boorish portrayal of the pro-oil faces of Canada is meant to allude that we are all just cartoonish red neck caricatures. Certainly nothing amiable there.
I would never insult our forces or dress up a lie.
Comment by Merv Ritchie on 1st February 2012
I have gone all the way back in the Ethical Oil forum and cannot even find the reference to my friend in the Shuswap.

Can you find it? I would like that exact text.

I Found this text - - - Greg Sr Craig Now you choose to defend my comrades.
Really? After just a little while ago slandering many of these fine young soldiers died while High on opium, or while selling it?
You have no moral authority to preach here Mr Slander.

Merv Ritchie Greg, do you remember writing these words, directly after openly admitting being a internet Troll? [...] " Perhaps if you can ever expand beyond your" end of the world" rhetoric we could actually be engaging in useful dialogue." [...] USEFUL DIALOGUE! I think you had better look that word up. I will always defend MY comrades who served to defend democracy. You are not one of those. And the only reference to Opium and Heroin was directly related to Afghanistan and why NATO was there at all. Yes many soldiers have been busted and many died high. Do you know any facts or are you just a verbal bully? Please explain why you will sell out the souls of the fallen and defend China! Remember Useful dialogue, not rhetoric.


I am certain I did not call all our forces drug users. It is a fact the some were.

I may have suggested it may have been the reason NATO was there though.

The year before NATO arrived the Taliban had completely stopped the poppy production. It was down to absolutely nothing. Then NATO invaded.

Here is an excerpt of a previous writing with links;

It is a fact the British Navy, which colonized much of the world was funded in a large part due to the Opium sales forced upon China. It was the foundation of Hong Kong and the British control of the region. Today Opium production is way up in Afghanistan. It is highest in the NATO controlled areas, such as Halmund Province, and the percentage of seizures to production is alarming.

During the reign of the Taliban, in 2001 the total Opium production was reduced to only 185 tons. The following year, 2002, after the Americans invaded, the production spiked to 3400 tons. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/01/AR2006120101654.html By 2006 another record year for Opium production was recorded by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime at 5600 tonnes and in 2009, 6900 tonnes.

It is estimated only 0.5% of the opium produced in Afghanistan is seized by the Afghanistan government while the Country now produces about 85% of the worlds supply. Iran on the other hand seizes approximately 90% of all the opium seized in the world, just under 600 tonnes, which is also up approximately 600% from 2001. http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/Studies/Global_Afghan_Opium_Trade_2011-web.pdf




I was not attempting to insult our forces. I did raise the issue though from serious study. Here are some more links

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20100912/afghanistan-heroin-smuggling-allegations-100912/

http://www.straight.com/article-571351/vancouver/kandahar-airfield-alleged-heroin-hotbed

But if you want a good laugh check out this rant

http://www.terracedaily.ca/cgi-bin/show_articles.cgi?ID=6273&TOPIC=0


And yes your comment is approved. The Terrace Daily does not practice censorship.
How Ethical Oil Debate Turned to Military Slander By Merv
Comment by Greg CRAIG SR on 31st January 2012
Hi Merv
I don't mind that you posted some FB comments here, and yes we did eventually had some agreeable conversation.
However since you have your readers convinced that we are all knuckle dragging Neanderthals, please allow me to clarify how our little tete a tete commenced. Of course your readers will probably be dismissive of me, but please allow me the courtesy of presenting the whole picture.

Our disagreeable conversation began off-topic when I corrected you on the role of the military, and how we were not Peace Keepers first but soldiers first. That indeeed we had trained to fight in the Cold War as soldiers. I am speaking as someone who actually served in our Armed Forces for 25 years, including overseas in Germany and service in the first Gulf War.
Apparently you did not like being corrected, as the conversation quickly denigrated into your calling me many names and insulting the many young freinds that I lost overseas. Trashing me was one thing, it pissed me off, which of course was the reaction you wanted, and I can take it.
But you left also out the postings where you were the one who slandered our serving men and women. Including taunting me with antagonistic statements about the deaths in Afghanistan, of some young service members by saying and I quote: "your freinds died for the drug trade, nothing more, nothing less."
"You must know that many of your freinds died high on the stuff. And many more have been busted handing out opium and heroin, not flowers and hugs. Sorry if I'm sounding condescending again"
However far we strayed from the topic of oil, I found your defamation of our proud young men and women who died in service to their country, to be repugnant to say the least. And I still find it sad that you offered no apology for your aspersions to those dearly departed. And I find it sadly ironic that you instead tried to insinuate that I slandered the memory of those fine young troops..

Now post the other side of the story, if you dare.
duh
Comment by anon on 31st January 2012
no one commented on the quad because most of us know that in the north of ont. with few roads . The only way to get in and out is by quad ,sled(s) or snow shoe . btw they are not from India . For five hundred years plus you still can't own up to the fact that Columbus got it wrong . This is not India.
Colleen
Comment by James Ippel on 31st January 2012
What am I talking about????? I am talking about the 49 million dollars they invested in the community to rebuild their water and sewer system. I am talking about their bringing in 10 new homes for the people of Atawapiskat. This was done by deBeers.
Do you have a problem accepting the truth? Are you one of these people who agree with Charlie Angus, NDP MP for the area? For seven years he has not done diddley sh!t for the people of Atiwapiskat, and now suddenly he is trying to make hay-unfortunately the sun ain'shining.
I see that no one has commented on the fact that the Band Council built an Arena instead of a School, or the 52 inch flat sceen TV's in less than desireable living accommodations. How about the large Quad ATV's parked outside of these less than desireable residences? Who made these choices? Please don't blame the Dept of Indian Affairs for "STUPID" choices made by the Cheif and Band Council. Give your head a shake, get real.
What are you talking about James Ippel ?
Comment by colleen on 31st January 2012
De beers sound like angels. If you google their history, they managed to create havoc themselves. READ it & make up your own minds.
thanks a bunch
Comment by roman on 30th January 2012
Merv, thanks for having the patience to put up with all that tiring ignorance and rudeness of "ethical oil facebook club". You spoke eloquently (within given restrains :-), didn't get distracted and still managed to keep the humour.To push it to the next level by posting it here was a stroke of genius. Hats off to you for a "job" well done. Your knowledge about the subject is quite amazing (at least to me) and you did back it all up by references to sources. Hopefully some of the "debaters" did get enlightened. I know I did.
Yours truly, "Dick Harper"
To anon/a point or two
Comment by James Ippel on 30th January 2012
Royalties on natural resources are a provincial jurisdiction so your holding the Federal Gov't at fault are way out of line.
Maybe you should get the facts straight on Atawapiskat. The Dept. of Indian Affairs sunk 90+ million dollars into this community in 6 years, and that money accomplished "diddley sh!t" because of poor management and no accountablility. Along with the money from Indian Affairs, deBeers also sent in 10 new all weather homes, rebuilt the water and sewer system, and for their troubles the Indians blockaded the road to the mine---the cost to deBeers was 49 million dollars for supplying these services. The, deBeers have also trained a large number of the peope from Atawapiskat to the point where they hold Journeyman Certificates in numerous trades.
The largest screw up by Band Management(in my opinion) was when the found the school had to be torn down and rebuilt on a different site, they took the money and built an arena, purchased a Zamboni to make ice, INSTEAD OF REBUILDING THE SCHOOL. The they have the guts to complain because they don't have the propler facilities for education???????
Maybe anon, you did'nt see the 52 inch flat screen TV's in the shacks, or the 800cc Quads parked outside of these shacks on a TV News Cast which prominately featured Nicole Tremel(leader of the NDP) on a photo in the village. Kinda blew up in her face did'nt it.
I pity the poor SOB editor who missed this when he prepared it for broadcast-he probably lost his job.
As to the scaring the crap out of our seniors, I don't know where you are comeing from. If you have been following politics for 50 years I would think you would be able to understand how we have to look to the future to ensure the present. At no time were any statements made that would indicate that seniors would be subjected to a reduction in their pensions. What I did understand that the age for retirement to receive Old Age Pension would go to age 67 from age 65. This is a pension that is funded strictly out of taxation on the Canadian worker, or General Revenue. The CCP is a combined employee/employer contribution fund, and is in great shape, being self sustainable currently, but will require increased contributions by both employer/employee as we are in a period of time when we have an imbalance of workers/retirees. We use to be at a point of 4 workers/1 retiree. This is quickly changing because of so many people planning to retire, and creating an imbalance between contributors and retiree's.
Bottom line, look at reality. If this is the most uncanadian government you have seen in fifty years, you most certainly have'nt been following politics to closely, as have been able to grasp politics.
For more clarification.
Comment by Helmut Giesbrecht on 30th January 2012
There is absolutely no "ethical" difference between buying oil from a despotic oppressive regime to manufacture goods in Canada or exporting Canadian oil to a despotic oppressive regime so they can manufacture goods which we buy. It is a complete wash in terms of ethics. Either way all you are doing is propping up the oppressive regimes. That being a "given", it makes much more sense - nothing to do with ethics now - to use Canadian oil for Canadian domestic use and to use it prudently with the knowledge that it won't last forever..

further to Helmut's post
Comment by clarify on 30th January 2012
Enbridge has stated the the NG Pipeline, if constructed, will drive the price of a barrel of crude up by $3/barrel. So.....all the risk, a few menial jobs, and we pay more......hmmm Enbridge do you sell used cars too?
"Canada Oil vs foreign Oil?"
Comment by Helmut Giesbrecht on 30th January 2012
I had a hard time reading through all those comments. The arrogance of some people who buy into the ethical oil vs. unethical oil argument is so self-serving. and shallow. Then there is the language. It is all about "infrastructure" and providing a "gateway" rather than having an intelligent debate about whether it is good national energy policy to export oil.

We send "ethical oil" to China (a dictatorship) so they can use it to make cheap labor goods (read unethical) back to us and we create jobs for them while we reduce the number of jobs here in this country. How is that different than buying "unethical oil" from anywhere and creating ethical products in Canada instead? It is just so much BS spin that means nothing.

I hear the other comment that if you are against "Gateway" - you can't call it a simple pipeline - you should park all your vehicles and cycle everywhere. What has the pipeline got to do with providing fuel for our vehicles. The pipeline is NOT for domestic use. It is for export. If anything it will increase the price of a barrel of oil because the demand is now bigger. We will all pay more and deplete a Canadian resource faster in the process.

It is a bit like my neighbor asking me if he can run a water line through my property so he can provide a benefit to my other neighbor. I probably wouldn't mind since there is no risk. But this is about a pipeline carrying bitumen crossing BC to go to another country, a dictatorship, just to make investors, most foreign, richer.

If I question this, I am considered a foreign-financed radical, an eco-pest, and every other name they have used in the exchange. As the lady said Merv, I think you were talking to a wall.

not just tar coming
Comment by anon on 30th January 2012
a few of points . The tar will be and is being made fluid enough to be tankered or piped by the addition of condensate which is being hauled in rail cars from kitimat to points east .It comes to kitimat in tankers then goes by rail . Think about that . It dissolves tar very similar to what we are made of . It in itself is nasty stuff and tar cannot move without it.
On a second point . I find it fishy that if we have low stumpage fees , the yanks go nuts and fine our forest companies billions of dollars for so called unfair trading practice . Yet we have the lowest royalties on OUR OIL /GAS and yet no one says a peep . If our harppy in ottawa were to get a fair deal from the oil companies we could easily balance our budget .
I also find it disturbing that at davos he spent so much time bragging about canada being the cheapest place for foreign corporations to pillage . While we have the like of atawapiskat , child poverty , homelessness , a post secondary school system that has priced most out , a welfare system that starves our women and children .
and now he wants to scare the crap out of our seniors . This harpert govenment is the most uncanadian government that I have seen in 50 years . I give him kudos for honesty as he doesn't even pretend to care about canadians .
Correction...."BC, let's not give away our resources"
Comment by Not an environmentalist on 30th January 2012
"so I ask Merv, which category do you fit in? Somebody who gets free money or a paid activist sitting in a Lazyboy recliner? " was not part of the original copy (that someone else posted on facebook) that I sent you in my comment. It was a question that I posed to you. Obviously you are neither a paid activist or somebody who receives free money. Whomever posted that original comment on facebook is seriously misguided.
Watch this video...
Comment by Karen on 30th January 2012
...and then tell me just how ethical the Canadian tar sands oil is.

http://www.babelgum.com/3015242/downstream.html#
Canadian
Comment by Paul Repstock on 30th January 2012
Reply to 'not environmentalist':
Most of us are on the same page (just different paragraphs) and with different points of view.
As you noted the namecallers are just trolls with a whole different agenda. Probably to reserve Canadian Oil for the exclusive benifit of the US. Why else push such an unacceptable platform?

I had not previously agreed with Merv's "Rail Tanker" concept. I had supported the processed oil pipeline. However, when everything is examined, one could ask, "Why have the terminal at Kitimat, which increases the exposure to marine accidents."? Obviously a pipeline all the way to the Queen Charlotte Islands would reduce the risk of tanker spills.

One thing is certain: There are vested interests at play, some of whom do not wish to face a complete study, some who would make a carreer of such a study, and some who would block any possible solution???

The fact is that in spite of American posturing, somebody is going to use the oil from the Tar Sands. I think the best we can do is seek to keep control of the oil in Canadian hands, and so much as possible reserve the benifits of the resource for Canadians.

Ethical propoganda targets the gullible
Comment by Karen on 30th January 2012
I find it extremelly disturbing that anyone can apply the term "ethical" to the product derived from the tar sands considering what the process to mine it has done to those living in the vicinity and the damage done to the environment that supports those people.

Only a very sick and greedy mind could ignore the fact that the waterways are becoming heavily polluted, that animals are showing up horribly disfigured, and that those that have thrived on those lands for hundreds of generations are now being afflicted with higher and higher rates of cancer.

Worst of all, it makes me sick to think that our Prime Minister not only condones this demented, sociopathic, horrible way of thinking, he also promotes such disgusting propoganda.

Reading this dialogue from the "EthicalOil.org." facebook site makes it very clear just how uninformed, naive and ignorant supporters of this project really are. Not surprising when you consider who the Prime Minister, and his allies, target with their twisted propoganda and the tactics they use to draw the gullible in.




BC, let's not give away our resources
Comment by Not an environmentalist on 30th January 2012
Somebody posted this on facebook recently:

AS much I can figure I like to drive, fly on planes, take the Greyhound, want to go on a Train excursion, I buy groceries. and consumer products like 34 million Canadians do each and every day... No matter how you slice it all things need oil.... So I say GET the Norhtern Gateway Project. JOBS ARE A GOOD THING...Only those who get free money and paid activists can sit in the LAZYBOY recliners and say NO. For those of you who oppose stop everything, go to a farmer buy a horse, live in a mud hut, dont turn your lights on, burn wood for heat, and light. OBtain a Bow and arrow to obtain food, etc..IF your gonna protest oil be REAL ... so I ask Merv, which category do you fit in? Somebody who gets free money or a paid activist sitting in a Lazyboy recliner?

The only name calling I see in your commentary and this comment above that I copied for you, shows me it's the "pro Enbridge" activists.

Keep up the good work, I enjoy your informative articles.
kudos to merv
Comment by ron wilton on 29th January 2012


Geez Merv, I really do admire your patience.

What does come out of your FB coversations is the realization that everyone involved does seem to have a passion for their province, their community, their own backyard.

Married to that sentiment is an almost equivalent failure to understand the other sides love, care and compassion for their home and not wanting it to be berated or despoiled by the others.

Of course FN's have been 'trying' to tell us this for centuries.

Wish as I might, I cannot see all sides converging on common ground whilst entities like 'ethical oil', our own governments, and other such purveyors of the 'divide and conquer' assembly, continue to infuse the conversation with absurd and provocative commentary, then retreat to the shadows and watch the likes of us battle it out with one another.

They are like the witches in MacBeth who tell us stories with a grain of truth to win us to our harm.

You seem to have opened the door a crack for a few, but I fear that conversation alone will not win this war.

We are not the enemy.